Tere, hall mansett /muhr chevron 1940?tanu.
Hello, in 1940 did trained private soldiers wear the grey (infantry) chevron on their cuffs/sleeves at the time of the 1940 Soviet occupation? Thankyou.
Koolitatud sõduri sümboolika 1939/40?
Re: Koolitud sodur sumboolika 1939/40?
Do You mean the NCO rank chevron?
- chevron.JPG (300.53 KiB) Vaadatud 19826 korda
foorum.rindeleht.ee
Re: Koolitud sodur sumboolika 1939/40?
The Estonian rank distinctions were replaced with the Soviet ones shortly after the incorporation into the USSR in August 1940.
Re: Koolitud sodur sumboolika 1939/40?
Hello Uscha, i was under the impression that trained privates wore the "arm of service" colour chevrons -(1939 insignia?) in 1939-40 or am i mistaken? The book "Germanys eastern front allies vol 2 Baltic forces" has a chart showing insignia.
thanks Toov.
thanks Toov.
Re: Koolitud sodur sumboolika 1939/40?
Actually the trained privates stopped wearing the arm of service coloured chevrons after 1938. The chevron was replaced by one single golden star. However the enlisted corporals and NCO's continued wearing these chevrons together with the stars.
The book you mentioned is quite good, but not without errors both in text and on colour plates. For instance:
Illustration on the Page 7: The Defence League (Kaitseliit) members standing on the background are wearing the KL officers' service uniform (note the black collar on the tunic and the officers Sam Browne belt with double-claw buckle and with the sword slings). These persons cannot be taken for NCO’s since the defence Leaague NCO service tunic had matching khaki collar and the belt had a single-claw buckle (with the shoulder-sling though). Two golden pips indicate the rank of the deputy company commander (kompanii pealiku abi)
Illustration on the Page 11:
1) Estonian military term for the section is 'jagu'; section leaders' title is 'jaoülem'. However, the title 'jaoülem' was used in the Defence Forces only. In the Defence League the title - 'jaopealik' was used instead (literally - section chief).
2) The person on the photo is again not NCO, but a subaltern officer according to his service uniform (black collar and officers belt) most likely a deputy company commander (kompanii pealiku abi). The cap badge on his cap band is likely not a DL universal cap badge (sporting the initials KL; this badge had a nickname ‘bottle cap’ due to its appearance). Though it’s very difficult to understand what kind of cap badge is it, but most probably the standard Estonian Defence Forces badge. Usually on the caps' crown another cap badge was worn, but never a cockade with national colours since neither EDF nor DL ever used such a cockade. The DL corps (district) badge was worn instead. Cockade
in the national colours was worn by police only. Infantry branch badge comprised not two crossed rifles but crossed rifle and a Madsen light machine gun.
Page 15: The most famous Estonian Knight Cross bearer Harald Nugiseks actually never fought with the German soldiers. What really happened: in the nearby railway station to Tallinn (Nõmme) he intervened, when a slightly drunk German Kettenhund (Field Gendarme) tried to separate by force one Estonian fellow soldier and his girlfriend, having a bit too long good bye. The Field Gendarme was very respectful towards Nugiseks and only checked his papers – whether he really had right to wear the highest German military award and that was it. However, Kettenhund passed a report on the incident to his commanding officer. The result - Waffen-Oscha Nugiseks was demoted to Waffen-Uscha for interrupting Kettenhund fulfilling his duty (this story is heard from the first hand source – Mr Nugiseks himself)
Color plates:
A1
1) The golden braid on the officer’s tunic sleeves, indicating the rank, was worn not around the sleeve but on the outer half only.
2) The tunic is far too short. On the contemporary photos we can see that usually the tunics’ skirts were much longer (according to British fashion). The belt was worn almost in the middle of the tunic and much higher than now.
3) The officer’s Sam Browne belt is missing the shoulder sling.
A2
1) The cap illustrated on this person is NOT a DL cap, which had a very specific cut in the front of the crown and the piping around the band and crown in the colour of branch of arms
2) On the cap band the DL cap badge (‘bottle cap’) is missing as well as the Corps badge on the crown
3) The DL summer blouse is missing the piping around the collar and shoulder straps in colour of branch of arm (infantry yellow, cavalry steel grey, artillery red, engineers dark green)
4) The shirt has too long skirt (according to regulations the skirt was shorter than sleeves
5) The pockets on the breast should be pleated.
6) All the DL members wore breeches. No straight trousers were worn (except with undress uniform, with the shoes). The breeches in the infantry arm were with two 15mm black stripes and with the piping in colour of branch of arms on the outer seam.
7) The belt is missing the shoulder sling (the rank and file were wearing the Sam Browne belts, but with one-claw belt buckle)
8 ) Dark brown leather cartridge pouches very similar to German Mauser pouches were produced in Estonia and used as a standard regulation pouches both in the Army and DL as well.
B2 1) Tunic collar is too low and too open. The standard stand and fall collar on the EDF rank and file tunic was actually much higher.
2) As a rule, the Estonian Army tunics used after summer 1940 were without shoulder straps. After incorporation of Estonian Defence Forces into Soviet Red Army, the shoulder straps were removed, even though the shoulder straps were without insignia. The rank distinctions were switched to Soviet ones on the Estonian EDF uniforms, but the Soviet tunics had no shoulder straps at this time (the shoulderstraps were regardes in Soviet Union as hated symbol of imperial army). On the other hand, all the uniform items worn by reserve officers and those who resigned service or deserted from the service before the ‘sovietization’ of the EDF, wore their uniforms usually with the proper EDF insignia
3) All branches of the Estonian DF wore breeches only (brownish khaki). The straight trousers were phased out already in 1920.
4) The cavalry troopers never wore khaki field breeches, but at all time dark raspberry red breeches with the steel grey stripes on the outer seams.
5) The German M16 steel helmets were indigenously produced in Estonia, though in the lighter version. This helmet was a standard issue both in the EDF and DL.
and a small drawing how the DK summer field uniform looked like
The book you mentioned is quite good, but not without errors both in text and on colour plates. For instance:
Illustration on the Page 7: The Defence League (Kaitseliit) members standing on the background are wearing the KL officers' service uniform (note the black collar on the tunic and the officers Sam Browne belt with double-claw buckle and with the sword slings). These persons cannot be taken for NCO’s since the defence Leaague NCO service tunic had matching khaki collar and the belt had a single-claw buckle (with the shoulder-sling though). Two golden pips indicate the rank of the deputy company commander (kompanii pealiku abi)
Illustration on the Page 11:
1) Estonian military term for the section is 'jagu'; section leaders' title is 'jaoülem'. However, the title 'jaoülem' was used in the Defence Forces only. In the Defence League the title - 'jaopealik' was used instead (literally - section chief).
2) The person on the photo is again not NCO, but a subaltern officer according to his service uniform (black collar and officers belt) most likely a deputy company commander (kompanii pealiku abi). The cap badge on his cap band is likely not a DL universal cap badge (sporting the initials KL; this badge had a nickname ‘bottle cap’ due to its appearance). Though it’s very difficult to understand what kind of cap badge is it, but most probably the standard Estonian Defence Forces badge. Usually on the caps' crown another cap badge was worn, but never a cockade with national colours since neither EDF nor DL ever used such a cockade. The DL corps (district) badge was worn instead. Cockade
in the national colours was worn by police only. Infantry branch badge comprised not two crossed rifles but crossed rifle and a Madsen light machine gun.
Page 15: The most famous Estonian Knight Cross bearer Harald Nugiseks actually never fought with the German soldiers. What really happened: in the nearby railway station to Tallinn (Nõmme) he intervened, when a slightly drunk German Kettenhund (Field Gendarme) tried to separate by force one Estonian fellow soldier and his girlfriend, having a bit too long good bye. The Field Gendarme was very respectful towards Nugiseks and only checked his papers – whether he really had right to wear the highest German military award and that was it. However, Kettenhund passed a report on the incident to his commanding officer. The result - Waffen-Oscha Nugiseks was demoted to Waffen-Uscha for interrupting Kettenhund fulfilling his duty (this story is heard from the first hand source – Mr Nugiseks himself)
Color plates:
A1
1) The golden braid on the officer’s tunic sleeves, indicating the rank, was worn not around the sleeve but on the outer half only.
2) The tunic is far too short. On the contemporary photos we can see that usually the tunics’ skirts were much longer (according to British fashion). The belt was worn almost in the middle of the tunic and much higher than now.
3) The officer’s Sam Browne belt is missing the shoulder sling.
A2
1) The cap illustrated on this person is NOT a DL cap, which had a very specific cut in the front of the crown and the piping around the band and crown in the colour of branch of arms
2) On the cap band the DL cap badge (‘bottle cap’) is missing as well as the Corps badge on the crown
3) The DL summer blouse is missing the piping around the collar and shoulder straps in colour of branch of arm (infantry yellow, cavalry steel grey, artillery red, engineers dark green)
4) The shirt has too long skirt (according to regulations the skirt was shorter than sleeves
5) The pockets on the breast should be pleated.
6) All the DL members wore breeches. No straight trousers were worn (except with undress uniform, with the shoes). The breeches in the infantry arm were with two 15mm black stripes and with the piping in colour of branch of arms on the outer seam.
7) The belt is missing the shoulder sling (the rank and file were wearing the Sam Browne belts, but with one-claw belt buckle)
8 ) Dark brown leather cartridge pouches very similar to German Mauser pouches were produced in Estonia and used as a standard regulation pouches both in the Army and DL as well.
B2 1) Tunic collar is too low and too open. The standard stand and fall collar on the EDF rank and file tunic was actually much higher.
2) As a rule, the Estonian Army tunics used after summer 1940 were without shoulder straps. After incorporation of Estonian Defence Forces into Soviet Red Army, the shoulder straps were removed, even though the shoulder straps were without insignia. The rank distinctions were switched to Soviet ones on the Estonian EDF uniforms, but the Soviet tunics had no shoulder straps at this time (the shoulderstraps were regardes in Soviet Union as hated symbol of imperial army). On the other hand, all the uniform items worn by reserve officers and those who resigned service or deserted from the service before the ‘sovietization’ of the EDF, wore their uniforms usually with the proper EDF insignia
3) All branches of the Estonian DF wore breeches only (brownish khaki). The straight trousers were phased out already in 1920.
4) The cavalry troopers never wore khaki field breeches, but at all time dark raspberry red breeches with the steel grey stripes on the outer seams.
5) The German M16 steel helmets were indigenously produced in Estonia, though in the lighter version. This helmet was a standard issue both in the EDF and DL.
and a small drawing how the DK summer field uniform looked like
Re: Koolitatud sõduri sümboolika 1939/40?
Hello Vana Kala, many thanks for supplying this usefull information. You mention Estonian made ammo pouches,what about haversacks or German style bread bags? I have seen "Estonian army uniforms/insignia 1936-44" by Fred Limberg and Ted Koppel ,this mentions greatcoats worn Russian /bandolier style,do you knowif this was usual?
Finally the M1936 rank insignia- was the arm of service coloured braid/shield badge still worn in 1939/40 for private/soldiers?
regards Toov.
Finally the M1936 rank insignia- was the arm of service coloured braid/shield badge still worn in 1939/40 for private/soldiers?
regards Toov.
Re: Koolitatud sõduri sümboolika 1939/40?
1. the German style haversacks, bread bags, Gas Masks with cannister and digging tools were the standard issue equipment, most of it indigenousy produced.
2. However at the same time British and Russian Adrian steel helmets, canvas back bags and Gas Mask holsters were used in some units.
3. the greatcoats were carried usually when not in use wrapped around the haversack in German style.
4. The rank insignia of the conscript soldiers on the sleeves was changed in 1938. What comes to the new NCO ranks of sergeant and veebel introduced in 1940, then most likely no new insignia was taken in use. At least I haven't seen any official papers in this regard.
5. To make it clear, on the picture below you can see on the left two examples of sleeve insignia of the private conscript soldiers introduced in 1936 - cavalry Atilla and infantry tunic. On the right you can see the new insignia introduced in 1938.
All other rank insignia remained the same.
2. However at the same time British and Russian Adrian steel helmets, canvas back bags and Gas Mask holsters were used in some units.
3. the greatcoats were carried usually when not in use wrapped around the haversack in German style.
4. The rank insignia of the conscript soldiers on the sleeves was changed in 1938. What comes to the new NCO ranks of sergeant and veebel introduced in 1940, then most likely no new insignia was taken in use. At least I haven't seen any official papers in this regard.
5. To make it clear, on the picture below you can see on the left two examples of sleeve insignia of the private conscript soldiers introduced in 1936 - cavalry Atilla and infantry tunic. On the right you can see the new insignia introduced in 1938.
All other rank insignia remained the same.
Re: Koolitatud sõduri sümboolika 1939/40?
Hello again Vana Kala ,thanks for posting those illustrations, the top one has a collar with some braid and small shield badge,do you know if this was still worn in 1938 or even 1939/40 by all ranks or just privates/n c o's ? thanks Pete.
Re: Koolitatud sõduri sümboolika 1939/40?
The collar insignia remained the same from 1936 until 1940 summer, both for enlisted and conscripted personnel
Re: Koolitatud sõduri sümboolika 1939/40?
Vana Kala, many thanks for your help ,regards Pete.